Written by One year we put holiday trees at Seatac Airport, took them all out again, and then put them all back. The next year a group put a sign written by athiests right next to a Christmas display at the statehouse, only to have it stolen, and then put back again.
The US Supreme Court just ruled on a similar situation in a park (specifically a monument with the Ten Commandments) finding that cities do not have to allow every single possible religious group to place it’s own monuments right along side other community monuments that have religious as well as historic significance.
While it does not directly address the case of community “Holiday Trees,” the language of the ruling tends to validate my own view that a community of thinking adults ought to be able to tolerate a holiday tree in their community (or statehouse), as they have for a century, without feeling like they must now provide displays for every other religios and non-religious idea that exists in the universe.
I’ll let the lawyers decide for sure what this means for “holiday trees” in our state. But it sounds like good news to me.
I think it’s a common sense solution, this allows the governor to remove the Nativity Scene AND the atheist sign.
-H
all in good spirit
I wouldn’t mind seeing a Nativity scene along with the holidays trees. What I don’t want to see is mean-spirited signs that are meant to hurtful. Share your beliefs in a positive manner.
Re: all in good spirit
Share your believe in your own time and space. Hurtful? Being told I’m going to hell because I dont’ accept your magic friend as my savior? The government is not the place for such debate, therefore. Get it out there.
Is it so hard for you believer to see this from the other side? What if I believe in Satan as my savior and just have it figure in the capital as a sign of love for you? Get it?
-H
Re: all in good spirit
Ouch! I’ve noticed as an accepting and open minded Christian, I’m getting insulted way more than people of other religions. I’m am completely for live and let live, sharing beliefs in a positive manner. Whatever works for you is fine. I also think everyone should be willing to learn about other’s beliefs – having a symbol of another religion in a public place will not offend me, as I would hope it wouldn’t others. However, referring to a “magic friend” is an obvious attempt to make fun of I and other Christians. It makes me sad, not because you’ve “spoken against the savior” or something, but because it is an obvious attempt at being hurtful. That is the problem with many views on or against religion. Trust me, I know it is never my place to tell someone what to believe or who is going wherever, but be nice.
Re: all in good spirit
The Supreme Court ruling covers this. It says that government is allowed to speak to citizens, through the use of monuments.
Under the ruling, when a government installs a statue of an early settler, for instance, the government is saying to the citizens that the person is important or historic or memorable. Citizens can then interpret whatever they will from the government monument–it’s ultimately in the the eye of the beholder. If a citizen does not like the person represented (they think they are too Christian, or too atheist, or they were too into drugs when they were alive, etc), the citizens can hand out flyers or write to the paper or vote against the politicians that approved the statue. All of these are legitimate free speech ways to respond. But the supreme court has determined that citizens are not allowed to arbitrarily start installing competing monuments.
So, as elected officials, we need to be certain that the monuments and decorations we install (or allow to be installed) in parks have a message that reflects a broad community value, or tradition, or history… or we face the risk of getting tossed from office. I doubt that a majority of citizens would vote against a Renton Councilmember for allowing a tree with bright lights to be displayed at the downtown Piazza in December. The nativity scene is a little more risky politically, as it is more clearly a purely Christian symbol, without the generic pagen winter festival history of a holiday tree. If an elected official voted to install nativity scenes all over town, they could find non-Christians supporting their opponent.
Similarly, if a politician voted to install (or allow to be installed) a monument that advocates atheism, they could find their next campaign under attack by people of many faiths.
I plan to continue supporting a holiday tree at the Piazza and holiday lights at Ivars. I would not support installing a nativity scene on city property, and I definitely would not support a sign that said there is no God and attacked people of faith.
I’ll celebrate and proclaim my Christian faith by decorating my own home with a nativity, and enjoying the beautiful one at my church each Christmas time.
Private citizens can picket or hand out flyers if they don’t like the tree at the Capitol or the airport, but they can’t start installing their own monuments. If they are truly unhappy, they can try and campaign against officials who allowed the holiday trees, but I would be surprised if a majority of voters tossed an official out of office for these fairly-generic holiday decorations.
I won’t judge, preach to, or make any assumptions about people who do not believe in God. I get joy and comfort from my faith, but we are all on different journeys.
Re: all in good spirit
Randy, you need to talk to the Renton School Board. They have banned almost everything that relates too many of the holidays we used to celebrate when we were children. We like you will continue to share with our children the values of Christmas and Easter. If the School Board continues to not support our values then maybe they need to be replaced with someone who truly represents the majority of the citizens in Renton.
Re: all in good spirit
While I’m not entirely happy to see many of the holidays I celebrated as a kid in school disappear from my own children’s school lives, I support the Renton school district in their decision to water them down. One of the things I love about Renton schools is the diversity of the students that attend them. This diversity provides a richness of experience for my kids that my school years never came close to providing for me, even with the holiday parties we celebrated. As an atheist myself, I am often the first one to speak up and defend the rights of school kids who belong to minority religious groups. I know how it feels to be left out of the mainstream and I hate to see any kid suffer that. I enjoyed the winter concert at my children’s school with the song selections from many cultural backgrounds. I also enjoyed “Multi-Cultural Night” at the school as well. I think Renton does a fantastic job of celebrating the diversity that we have in our schools.
Re: all in good spirit
>>I also enjoyed “Multi-Cultural Night” at the school as well.
Enjoy “Multi-Cultural Night” but don’t be afraid to celebrate your culture. All cultures are not equivalent, some are much better than others and we shouldn’t defer our own cultures for louder and more strident ones.
I’m not saying that there isn’t anything to learn from other cultures, but sometimes we need to step back and admire out own values.
Re: all in good spirit
Hey Randy, that’s quite well stated. We all have different believe systems.
As far as someone saying they “feel” that as a Christian, they are being assaulted. It’s called percived incident or the “VW Bug effect”, once you start notice VW Bug, they are suddenly everywhere you see.
I understand that’s how you “feel” but spend a day as a non-believer you will see how good you have it. I understand and accept the USA is of mostly Christian faith, just stop telling me how I will go to hell or have no moral because I’m a non-believer (both happend to me).
-H
Re: all in good spirit
Question: If you’re a non-believer why would someone telling you that “you’re going to hell” bother you in the slightest? They might as well be telling you that you’re “Going to ^%HDHDL#$@” when you die. Next time – try being horribly cheerful when someone spouts such “hell” nonsense, it will drive them NUTS! (Or nuttier.)
I what a rigorous wall between religion and government; And while I appreciate the ruling for it’s thoughtfulness – I don’t like it one bit.
Historically the Framers wanted a separation to protect religion from the corrution of government, not the other way around.
Re: all in good spirit
You make an interesting point -H. But a point made in ignorance. What I see from your comment is nothing more that sheer close-mindedness to a particular groups beliefs. It is becoming far too common in this country to stab at the majority, yet tippy-toe over everyone else. Besides, if you knew anything about the Christian religion, then you would realize that your “Cristian” peers you speak of don’t speak for every Christian out there. A Christian who tells you, “You’re going to hell!” is no Christian. And I have a real hard time believing that you wouldn’t realize this since basic Christian values (compasion, empathy, to name a few) seem to be the staple of American upbringing these days regardless if your a Christian or not.
I think Ghandi says it best : “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
In this particular instance, it’s the other way around: hate the player, not the game. (Not really, though. Hating is very unchristian-like 🙂 )
I like “holiday trees” and would be sad to see them go.
In other news, look! The horse industry benefits from the economic stimulus bill!
http://horsecouncil.org/legislation/EcnmcStmls111.php
I am thrilled – I love holiday decorating – and the “holiday tree” actually spans back to pagan rituals – it is “evergreen”, the sign that winter will one day come to an end and Spring will be reborn – it is our human spirit celebrating when the days are shortest and there is more night than light…it need not be about religion but simply about the human experience
It’s a Christmas tree!!!! Randy, you better be careful moving to the right on this. You may anger your liberal base. TCC
Frankly I’m offended when people don’t want Christmas or holiday trees because it takes the fun out of the season. It would be like suddenly declaring a law against trick-or-treating. Doesn’t anyone have fond memories of these as a child? Sheesh.
If you ever get the chance to spend Christmas in a German speaking country, you’d really love it:
They have these charming little outdoor shops that sell little hand-name trinkets for your trees and plenty of mulled wine.
You go, get drunk, buy a few nice things and stumble home.
The rings the church bells at christmass too:
To be clear, no one is objecting to Christmas Tree. That was never the issue.
Not exactly in this post, but it’s been the issue before. (Seatac airport, 2007 I think?)