Written by There are some installation issues still impacting the speed cameras at McKnight Middle School. I’m hoping we can get these addressed before we start issuing tickets–I think so far we are still issuing warnings to drivers that exceed the 20 miles per hour limit.
I have personally seen drivers turning onto Edmonds from NE 16th, and getting their car’s picture taken by the speed camera, even when there are no children in sight AND they never passed a flashing warning light. I do not think these warnings/tickets are fair, or that the tickets will hold up in court unless we get the company that installed the cameras back to finish the job on the signage.
We have already received at least one written complaint about this situation.
The problem is while the Edmond approaches clearly link the reduced speed to the flashing lights, and make it a clear violation if a driver exceeds 20 miles per hour when the lights are flashing, the drivers approaching from 16th get no such warning and pass no flashing lights. Hence, they must go with the signage, which links the speed zone to the words “when children are present”.
The Washington Administrative Code clearly spells out what the words “when children are present” really mean:
WAC 468-95-350
When children are present.
Amend MUTCD Section 7B.11 by adding the following supplemental paragraph to the second Standard:
The supplemental or lower panel of a School Speed Limit 20 sign which reads When Children are Present shall indicate to the motorist that the 20 mile per hour school speed limit is in force under any of the following conditions:
(1) School children are occupying or walking within the marked crosswalk.
(2) School children are waiting at the curb or on the shoulder of the roadway and are about to cross the roadway by way of the marked crosswalk.
(3) School children are present or walking along the roadway, either on the adjacent sidewalk or, in the absence of sidewalks, on the shoulder within the posted school speed limit zone extending 300 feet, or other distance established by regulation, in either direction from the marked crosswalk.
[Statutory Authority: Chapter 34.05 RCW and RCW 47.36.030. 03-06-053, § 468-95-350, filed 2/28/03, effective 3/31/03.]
Safe and legal drivers will abide a 30 mile per hour speed limit on Edmonds Ave NE, and then the reduced 20 MPH speed in the school zone. In this picture you can see the first indication of a school crossing in the bright yellow sign to the upper left.
This sign, for motorists heading Southbound on Edmonds Ave is pretty clear. Slow down when the lights flash, or when children are present, or you deserve the ticket you will get. No problem here.
But many people enter Edmonds Ave from NE 16th street. Here drivers from the East and West are entering Edmonds in the school zone, where they will pass the speed cameras, and none of them have passed any lights, flashing or not. They will never get a chance to see a flashing light from this approach, as the only flashing lights are on Edmonds Ave, 300 feet before the intersection with NE 16th.
Additionally, they will also not pass any signs that say that speed is photo-enforced, which looks to be out of compliance with state law which reads “All locations where a photo enforcement system is used must be clearly marked by placing signs in locations that clearly indicate to a driver that he or she is entering a zone where traffic laws are enforced by a photo enforcement system.” See the signage that they will see below.
Here is what drivers headed East on 16th will see before they enter the school zone. The sign warns them that the zone is in force when the lights flash or when children are present, but they will never pass a flashing light (even during peak school hours.) So they have to rely on the provision to watch for children being “present.”
Here is the westbound approach on NE 16th. It very clearly links the speed zone to “when children are present” but not to flashing lights at all. Even though the school may be holding summer classes, there may be no kids outdoors on the closed campus. Hapless drivers who approach the school this way on a summer day, with no children anywhere to be seen, and then turn left can get tagged for speeding in disregard of a flashing light they would have never seen.
We, the city of Renton, contracted with a private firm to install the cameras and signage, and to process the warnings and tickets. I feel this firm has a bit more work to do before we give anyone a ticket.
Thanks Randy for trying to make the system fair.
Out of curiosity, if someone goes 21 mph do they get ticket?
Fine Tuning . . .
I agree that this system may need a bit more work. On July 4th at Renton High, the lights were flashing at 8:00 am. I find it hard to believe that there was “summer school” taking place on the fourth of July.
But all in all it’s a good system and a good idea–let’s just make sure that those that are cited are really violating the law.
So how much did these cameras cost. . .
Was a cost / benfit analysis done?
I use Edmonds every day, turning from NE 16th (west). Just accelarting
Cameras. . .Meter Maids. .WTF How much does Parking enformcement bring in ???
Re: So how much did these cameras cost. . .
Hmm, let’s see.
Cost: $$ for installation, maintenance, ticketing system, etc.
Benefit: No kids getting run over by careless drivers.
Hmm. Nawww, obviously not worth it.
Re: So how much did these cameras cost. . .
It was even a better deal than that… the city has not had to put out any funds for the installation. The company that installed and maintained the system gets its fee from a share of the ticket revenue…the rest of the revenue will go toward police overtime to enforce speed limits in other neighborhoods.
And the system does work to slow down drivers and protect kids. It just needs some fine tuning.
By the way, we’re hearing that tickets at the red-light cameras are not as frequent as expected. It sounds like Renton drivers are either safer by nature, or quick learners. Either way, it is not taxpayer money that was spent for these systems.
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Thanks for that info too–I didn’t know that. Either way, I really do think they work (although I agree with your fine-tuning point). Cops stationed on Edmonds don’t work because people know they have a minimal chance of getting stopped. With the speed camera, people know that there’s a pretty good chance of them getting caught. I think it’s a nice deterrent.
Glad to hear that about the red-light cameras as well. I trust our city council to keep the system honest and not do things like shorten the yellow lights like we’ve heard of happening in other places, and given that, I hope that the cameras will work for their intended purpose–increasing public safety.
Thanks for paying attention to it. Let’s face it, this is used as a revenue generating device, nothing else. Just google and you find out there are cities that shortened the yellow light to allow the red-light camera to catch more drivers. The solution is more real cop doing enforcement but that’s expensive.
I seen people blew through (not even slowing down) for the two stop signs on Aberdeen (upper kennydale) all the time. You can’t put a camera up everywhere.
I disagree–looking at the locations they’ve placed them in (outside of schools), I think they’re primarily a public safety device. I think there were two or three kids hit outside of McKnight last year, and I don’t know how many outside of RHS (don’t live in that neighborhood, so I don’t keep track). As I said above, the cop is not nearly as much of a deterrent as the camera. Should it be operating in the summer? Probably not, but I think keeping the signs up are a good reminder for people that for 180 days a year, the rules do apply.
I know someone that got a warning ticket for doing 30. very nice picture with the licence plate and everything……must be a few megapixels. the problem is there are no children in the picture……..not many out in the mornings during the summer when school is out……maybe they are just testing it right now
cameras
my husband got a warning for driving too fast by Renton High even though school is out and not a child in sight!!!!Signs say “when children are present”
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it was a only a warning……cant say anything. I dont know what judge Jurado would say if you showed up and there were no children in the photos? i think it says on the warning that somebody from arizona is writing the tickets. I bet they get the surveillance photos from the internet….. another main point is that not all routes have the yellow blinking light
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To the two posters above, uuhhmmm, it’s 20 with kids present and 25 regularly. 30 mph is 5 over and should get a ticket. This is not “kid” related; it’s speed limit related. Don’t speed or you’ll get a ticket–kids or not.
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This is BS. I’m a RHS student.
I just wanted to bring this up, because i do understand that the photo enforcements are new, however it is very misleading with the posting. It says 20mph ‘when children are present’ or when light is flashing, and it isn’t – i’ve checked constantly. I leave the area about 1:00pm-1:30pm I know that this does not mean that we can ‘speed’ however, its a bit misleading. I also have to comment, that the photo enforcing camera is positioned at a stoplight on a ‘one way’ street that has no where to turn, except going straight. Theres about 2-4 stop lights in front of RHS. The stoplights are also synchronized and timed – or at least i’m assuming based on observations. The lights from the back turn green, then the the proceeding lights turn green after a few intervals.
The camera is also just a few feet in front of one of the lights. The greatest issue is this. Cars are usually stopped behind the camera, due to a stop light that is placed before the camera. So cars are stopped. When the lights turn green, cars acclerate – and then the issue becomes apparent. Having the camera right in front of the light will then detect the accleration as a fast speed, and so drivers are infracted for simply accelerating. 0-20 can be done in one second. So in one second of just accelerating from a green, you’ve just violated. Theres not even a second for compensation for overaccleration in a split second.
The lights are NOT flashing.
Children are NOT present.
What violation is this? apparently I got 5 tickets thus far.
Back to back.
It pays for me to make a local commute doesnt it.
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Thanks for your comment. I also got an email today from you as well. We need to sort this out for you…I think there is a problem.
But just so you know, the speed is being taken by a loop in the street. It measures how fast your wheels hit th first wire, and then the second. If you look, you can find the area that was dug up and patched near the camera. It should not be affected by acceleration…just the time it takes for your axle to cross the two wires.
This is more likely a problem with the timing of the flashing light. It does not sound like it is on when it should be.
If it is not on, the ticket is not legitimate… hopefully the administration or the court can address this for you…I know they are looking at it.
And your point about getting four tickets…I can see why you would be mad.
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my name is Justin Wu – emailed you above
40kterra@gmail.com
for some reason, i’m not getting the confirmation email… to register.. anyways..
Hey Randy, can you assist me.
I’ve been talking to Kent Curry, but he seems to have no power or knowledge in ferms of the flashing lights goes.
He specifically states that the flashing lights ARE directly connected to the photo enforcement – which i highly doubt.. or else I wouldn’t have gotten the tickets.
I noticed this sunday, the department of transportation stopped by and adjusted the flashing lights and now its working again. I have a picture of it, however I have not uploaded it. If you want me to, I can…
This is proof that the flashing lights were not functional. Kent told me that this is some ‘weekly’ programming…
however, does the transportation department really does weekly programming.?
Its just a coincidence – because THIS week, the lights started flashing again.
Yes – thanks for me bringing it up, and a few other students..
ITs not the fact that I hate these lights and such. I’m dissappointed in the fact that I am a victim of faulty technology – and punished severely.
I drove past this area for 2 weeks prior to this. 2-3 times a day. To say that I was ignorant of the flashing lights would be an insult to me…
Everytime I drove by, I clearly looked at the specific instructions. I know you recieved emails from other people , and clearly – the posts above here show that I am not being fake..
so – i’m wondering if you can help me out in any way.
I’m already going to try to talk to the department of transportation and traffic control instead…
photo police enforcements seem to have no.. control over this matter.
My email to the photo enforcement:
I have been leaving the area at 1pm – so 1 hour after school hours doesnt really apply at all, because school ends at 2.I know that I was driving during school hours, however – again the lights were not flashing, and children were not present.
As stated, the lights are viewable outside when pulling out of the parking lot, and I know they are. The first time I pulled out during the first day of school, I clearly saw them, and i read them all the time.
I also ocassionally come from the renton park and ride in the transit center and pass by the school. I can clearly see the signs.
I pass there 5-6 days of the week, 2-3 times a day.
Same along with other students who have suffered by this mishap.They pass there the same time as equally as well.
The lights are working as of this week, after the reprogramming on sunday.
Now the lights are very noticeable, and there are two of them.
Including like 4-6+ signs of photo enforcement and the speed limit with the given conditions.
To say that i simply ‘ignored’ the flashing lights that were ‘supposedly’ working – would be an insult to me.
Me and my fellow students aren’t that blind… and neither would I have taken any intiative into bringing this up to the renton council..
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Its not just a concidence either too.
I got 4 tickets almost back to back day to day.
I know about 3-4 other students who have recieved this issue as well…
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Hi, my name is Terrence Eng, and I currently am a student at BCC. I’d also like to comment on the cameras in front of Renton High School.
While it may seem that this is just another person complaining about a ticket, I found that this blog actually holds some sort of merit in my case.
I was given a speeding ticket of going 27 MPH in a supposedly 20 MPH stretch of S 2nd St., the one right in front of Renton High. The signs say “20 MPH when flashing or when children are present”. Now, what I took from that sign was very literal: if the light above the sign was flashing, or if any students were in any visible sight, then you were to go 20 MPH maximum. I understood that completely.
The complaint here was that I felt that both conditions were not met, allowing me to go at a comfortable speed around 25 MPH, hence me driving at 27.
In the pictures given to me it can be clearly seen that there are no students on the sidewalk on the south side of the road, and on the north side of the road is actually a middle island which students shouldn’t be walking on anyway. Additionally, I didn’t spot any students on the road simply because it was 1:06 pm, and I was certain that all students were safe in their classes at this time.
It’s not that I have an issue with the cameras, by all means I think they’re a good idea. It’s just that I feel people driving past shouldn’t be penalized by taking a sign so literal.
If what Mr. Wu said was true, then I believe that an accusation saying that he “ignored” the flashing lights has no merit, considering I have driven past the school at around 1:00 pm plenty of times in the last couple weeks, and have also not seen any of those lights flashing on and off.
Just to clarify, my issue is not with the cameras themselves, I’m just worried about the people also going 25-30 MPH during those times, when children are not present. It just seems unfair to ticket a person saying they did not abide to the sign, when it seems the sign’s conditions weren’t apparent at the time.
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I thank you all for your blog entries. I will discuss this with the police department to make sure there is not confusion about the flashing lights. The police response I received said that the camera would not issue a ticket unless the lights were flashing, but this seems to disagree with your observations. I’m not sure if this is a misunderstanding, if the lights were not working, if we are talking about different lights, or if the sun was simply glaring off the lights.
Again, I’ll talk to the police to make sure everything is wired correctly. Meanwhile, I’m afraid you will have to schedule a court date to resolve your tickets. I can find out if the system is wired correctly, but separation of powers prevents me from having any influence over tickets that have been issued. The municipal judge will have to hear the details.
Best Wishes,
Randy
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Thanks randy –
the wiring is just important to bring towards the court hearing – thats all really..
otherwise theres not much case against the lights for us.
Anyways, i apologize that we are bothering you.
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Randy
Thank you for your blog. I too received a ticket stating I drove 32 in a 20 mile zone. I have never received an infraction, ticket, warning, or even a parking ticket in the 42 years I have been driving. I always honor school zones. I cannot believe I would be speeding through a school zone. There were no flashing lights, no children and it was noon on Oct 20th. If anyone else received one at that time and has further info, I would appreciate it, as I am contesting this ticket.
The video they provided clearly shows my brake lights on when reaching the sign. The snapshots they provide somehow have the brake light edited off. Interesting. It appears to me, these people in Scottsdale AZ are just trying to make a lot of money off drivers here.
Any advice for my court date will be appreciated. Looks to me like there is definitely “reasonable doubt”.
Joan
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My wife works at the Renton YWCA and got an infraction for going 26mph in the 20mph school zone of the RHS from officer Jeff Reynolds. In the video and snapshots it is clear that there are no children present.
Clearly we want to go to the hearing, but I live in the UW district and the ticket was in my name (even though my wife is also a registered owner). I rather send my explanation by mail (via the mitigation hearing) but fear that by doing that we will be deemed to have committed the infraction.
I would hate to have to miss a day of work to go all the way down to Renton just to explain to a judge that no children were present and that 26mph was a very safe speed at 1:23pm that day, but it seems that is my only option, right?
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If you are interested, I have taken pictures of the department of transportation fixing the flashing lights, its dated too.
Just develop it.
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email me at:
jwuggles@u.washington.edu
thanks.